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Forum LockedAES16-SRC dropouts after moving to Windows 10
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Brent View Drop Down
Caracal
Caracal


Joined: October/06/2007
Location: Canada
Points: 30 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: AES16-SRC dropouts after moving to Windows 10
    Posted: January/04/2016 at 2:52pm
Hey guys,

For years I've had the same system running an AES16-SRC ( PCI ) connected to an Aurora 8.  When I upgraded to Windows 10 from Windows 7, I noticed that over time, there were dropouts racking up in the Lynx mixer on the 1/2 output channels.  I have yet been able to pin down when exactly these occur, but even idling overnight, they seem to add up.

The system

Intel I5 2500K 
P8P67 Deluxe ASUS motherboard. 
8GB corsair ram
MSI GTX580 video card
AES16-SRC -> Aurora 8


This is all the same hardware that was being used with Windows 7, so I'm guessing there is something about Windows 10 that needs to stop/change to prevent this?  I've updated to the latest driver I could find, but the problem still persists.

Lynx Mixer Version 2.00 Build 23a
Build Date Nov 30 2015

Lynx AES16-SRC Rev: B
Firmware 26.0  Date July 01, 2010

Aurora 8 Rev: B
Firmware Rev: 25

This is a screenshot

https://gyazo.com/6a73240e52ea16aba8b8eff4b5ba35cc

I haven't really done any recording in ASIO ( I usually use reaper ) since the upgrade to see if it happens there, but it's definitely happening through normal use just using Windows 10 with programs and games it seems.

Any help or advice would be appreciated.  

Cheers
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PaulTech View Drop Down
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Points: 5495 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/05/2016 at 1:10pm
So I wonder if you have some app or process that is access your default audio device and causing dropouts.

Is your motherboard's built-in audio device still active? 
If so, try making that the default audio device in Windows and see if the dropouts stop with the AES16. 
If you do not have another audio device to do this with, try changing the default audio device to AES16 Play 15+16. See if the dropouts follow to those channels. 

There is no intrinsic problem with Windows 10, it sounds like something in the software realm is going on here. 

You might also run task manager and see what apps are running on launch. You might want to clear any suspect apps out of Startup as well. 
Paul Erlandson
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Brent View Drop Down
Caracal
Caracal


Joined: October/06/2007
Location: Canada
Points: 30 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/05/2016 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by PaulTech PaulTech wrote:

So I wonder if you have some app or process that is access your default audio device and causing dropouts.

Is your motherboard's built-in audio device still active? 
If so, try making that the default audio device in Windows and see if the dropouts stop with the AES16. 
If you do not have another audio device to do this with, try changing the default audio device to AES16 Play 15+16. See if the dropouts follow to those channels. 

There is no intrinsic problem with Windows 10, it sounds like something in the software realm is going on here. 

You might also run task manager and see what apps are running on launch. You might want to clear any suspect apps out of Startup as well. 


Hey Paul, thanks for the reply.

Literally the only thing that has changed is the OS upgrade.   The onboard audio has been disabled in the bios for years :).  I disable the HDMI audio that installs with the video card via device manager.  
Both the default device and the default communications device, is set to the 1/2 outputs.

I turned off everything in startup just the same and restarted.  It seems I can easily cause a dropout just by opening any one of my many games on this system.

I changed the "Default Device" per your note, but I used Play 07+08 as these are actually connected to the Aurora 8.  My patch bay is hard wired for my speakers on 1/2 so I couldn't hear anything, but I could at least confirm it was switching to 16 bit stereo and playing.  I could not reproduce any dropouts after doing this.

I then changed the default communications device in Windows playback devices, to be the same as the Default Device on Play 07 + 08.   This is how I ran things in Windows 7 because I have an out on the patch bay for 1/2 tha goes to my Avenson headphone amplifier, and I use it along with my SM7B/HD600's for VOIP conference calls and such.  Anyhow, as soon as they are set to the same output device, I was able to reproduce dropouts on Play 07 + 08.

I don't know if this is the entire problem, but it's certainly a cause to part of it.  It's also different than Windows 7 since this was all working fine on that OS.  I'm not sure if it's a change/problem with how Windows 10 handles these connections internally now, or if it's just something that's different for Windows 10 with the AES16 driver?  For what it's worth, I don't have any VOIP type programs ( I use Google Talk usually ) open when I was able to reproduce this.

I'll leave the communications device on a different output for now, and keep monitoring for other dropouts to see if there is a different testcase.  If it is just the communications device, I guess I'll have to remember to change it back manually when I need it.  It's a minor pain and may affect detecting incoming calls, but wouldn't be the end of the world.

I'll keep poking around with it.  I may just do a completely fresh Windows 10 install and see if it happens.

Cheers
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Brent View Drop Down
Caracal
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Joined: October/06/2007
Location: Canada
Points: 30 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/05/2016 at 4:51pm
... and it appears I spoke too soon.  Something else is still causing dropouts on Play 01 + 02.   I was closing a couple browser tabs and looked over and there were 16 dropouts..
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David A Hoatson View Drop Down
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Points: 4993 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2016 at 8:00am
Have you double-checked to make sure the EIST (SpeedStep) and C States are all turned OFF in the BIOS?
Thank you,

David A. Hoatson
Lynx Studio Technology, Inc.
Co-founder, Chief Software Engineer
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Brent View Drop Down
Caracal
Caracal


Joined: October/06/2007
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Points: 30 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2016 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by David A Hoatson David A Hoatson wrote:

Have you double-checked to make sure the EIST (SpeedStep) and C States are all turned OFF in the BIOS?

Yes sir.  I just double checked they didn't get reset, they've been disabled for years.  It really seems like anytime there are multiple applications or browser windows in the mix that the problem crops up.
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David A Hoatson View Drop Down
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Points: 4993 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2016 at 3:52pm
Your Windows power settings are "High Performance"?
Thank you,

David A. Hoatson
Lynx Studio Technology, Inc.
Co-founder, Chief Software Engineer
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Brent View Drop Down
Caracal
Caracal


Joined: October/06/2007
Location: Canada
Points: 30 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2016 at 6:24pm
Originally posted by David A Hoatson David A Hoatson wrote:

Your Windows power settings are "High Performance"?

No it looks like this was flipped back to balance after the upgrade to 10.  I set it back to high performance, but unfortunately it didn't solve the dropout mystery.
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Brent View Drop Down
Caracal
Caracal


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Points: 30 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/10/2016 at 7:31am
So after a couple of long days trying things, I think I may have found the problem.

I kind of bumped into it by accident.  I started by running some latency tools in Windows 10, which I didn't realize at the time, don't work so well as they were designed for Windows 7.  I was noticing medium/high usage on the Nvidia display driver that were a lot worse than they really were due to incompatibilities with the tools.   That lead me to try older driver versions, and even swap out the 580 for a 970 borrowed from another system.  I was still seeing the problem so I decided just to go back to Windows 7 and get a sanity check and rule out drivers etc. I was finding out that this particular board did not have official Windows 10 support from ASUS anyway.

I  reinstalled Windows 7 SP1, and made sure I had all the chipset drivers from ASUS and adjusted power profiles and disabled defender and other bloatware I typically had disabled.  The DPC latency tools were showing my system having really low latency but get a random high mark once in a while. It wasn't around any specific driver though.  I installed one of the smaller games I knew I could reproduce with occasionally by just loading the launcher, and sure enough, I was now seeing dropouts in the mixer in Windows 7!  ( There goes my thread title!)  I wasn't sure what to think, this system has been stable for a long time on this same OS and setup.

Anyhow, I started doing some research, and came across some articles on HPET ( High Precision Event Timer) and it's effect or lack therof on DPC/latency.  Basically you need to have it on in the bios AND the OS for the OS to use it.  Windows 10 supposedly uses a different, 'better' timer and my Windows 7 clean install didn't have it enabled in the OS by default, so it was defaulted to whatever older timer it uses.

Most of the info I found online was from "gamers" trying to fix frame rate microstutters but also audio problems caused by latency issues. There were 2 camps I was seeing in my searches.  Some folks were getting better DPC results disabling HPET altogether, and some folks were getting better results enabling it both in BIOS and OS.  It also seems very system/motherboard specific if either even helped.

I figured I would try it.  I enabled HPET in the OS by running this command I found bcdedit /set useplatformclock true ( it's also enabled in the BIOS at this point).  I shut down so the settings could take effect.  About the same.  I then disabled HPET in the OS using bcdedit /deletevalue useplatformclock and rebooted into the BIOS and disabled it there at a hardware level and restarted.....  

I don't want to jinx it, but  I can't get the Lynx Mixer for the AES16 to dropout after several hours of trying.  I put up a few browser windows with some streaming video at the same time as launching multiple game launchers...rock solid.  I'm kind of confused by the whole situation really.  All the other BIOS settings are still set from years ago, so it doesn't look like something that would have been reset back to on, if it had been off. Maybe it's a combination of newer updates somewhere in the OS or maybe newer AES16 drivers don't like it, I'm not sure!?  Either way, there's something about this being on at a hardware level that causes problems, even when the OS is not set to use a HPET explicitly.  Maybe the board is going?
 
I was planning on upgrading to a 6700k/Z170 platform soon because there are fewer and fewer boards that are made with PCI slots that are 'decent' these days ( pretty much only midrange boards with just enough 'new' features), and  I was hoping to  buy in now and get another generation out this AES16-SRC.  

After some more research though, it looks like most boards don't give you the option  to disable HPET at a hardware level anymore.    I guess mixing rather old and slower PCI tech along with faster tech may have finally run its course? Maybe I'll just have to bite the bullet and buy a new interface for the Aurora 8, or gamble that it's just this specific board and its timer that are the problem.  Clown  


Edited by Brent - January/10/2016 at 11:24pm
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PaulTech View Drop Down
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Points: 5495 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/13/2016 at 5:14pm
Thanks for the update, very interesting...
Paul Erlandson
Lynx Studio Technology
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714-545-4700 x 206
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